OVERCOME TRIBULATION

Creator Comment by Ken Rich on October 29, 2012 at 9:09am

Hi David, again I find Andrews theology to be lacking and his view immature in this particular area.

I think the problem in part is that he is trying to make short statements, on large matters, which need to be "fleshed out" better to expose the nuances. They also need to take into consideration the weight of all scripture, not just a few verses that in "splendid isolation" seem to support his position.

 

This statement "God's Word does not need to be supplemented with problems to accomplish its work" denies a great many scriptures.  

The truth is that our faith is dead without actions (James 2:26), no matter how much "head knowledge" we have, it is useless and dead without existential expression. Our actions play a role in the perfecting of our characters. We build character as we react to tests, trials, opportunities, challenges, and "exercise" our faith.

 
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our present troubles are small and won't last very long. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever...

 
In this verse is it the word that produces the glory in us, or is it our present troubles (existential, sufferings).

Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.

In this scripture is it the Word that produces the perseverance, or is it the suffering?

I could go on and on with dozens of verses that completely contradict Andrew's theology, but that is sufficient. It is not that he is wrong, it's that his theology is incomplete - allow me to illustrate. 

Suppose we have a row boat with two oars. One is the Word and the other is deeds. By deeds I mean a framework of existentialism - life experience with trials, tests, challenges, overcoming, sufferings, victories, failures, etc. (Humor me for a moment - I know this is usually presented as faith and works).

 

Andrew completely throws out one oar (existential experience) and can only go in circles, with a dead faith that has "head knowledge" only. No deeds, no trials, no tests to refine and prove it's mettle.

 

On the other hand, a transcendentalist like Ralph Waldo Emerson makes the opposite mistake and throws out the other oar - the Word. Deprived of "special revelation" and "objective truth", he is lost on a sea of subjective thought, going in circles of the opposite direction.

 

In actual fact, both oars together will allow one to row swiftly in a straight course to a personal relationship with God that is tried, tested, and true. 

Consider Romans 2 - Even someone who has no knowledge of the Word is without excuse because there is "natural revelation" and what God requires is written on men's hearts - it's "innate". The "special revelation" of the word is not the only way God reaches out to men.

Existential experience within the boundaries GOD has set, with the innate moral compass planted within, with the striving of his Spirit, is still limited without the guidance of the Word - that's true. It is best to have both working in unison. The Word and the merits of rationalism should not be ignored, downplayed, or rejected.

The opposite is also true. Without existential expression and internal witness, the Word does not produce a crop. As in the parable of the seed that fell on rocky soil, or shallow soil, only under certain conditions will the Word produce a crop.

Luke 8:15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop Hmmmm.... Where have we heard this word persevering before? What produces it?

Andrew is completely right to uplift the Word but a word based faith is dead, untried, untested, without actions to exercise and purify it within an existential framework. A "head knowledge" religion won't "cut it".

 

On the other hand, faith that is tried and tested in the furnace of affliction is like pure gold. That doesn't come by the Word alone,  it comes by persevering through sufferings born of existential experience.

Jeremiah 9:7 Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test
them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?

 

Who is speaking here? It is the LORD Almighty who is doing the refining and testing!!! Why didn't he just give them more of "the Word" if Andrew is right, why did he decide to refine and test them instead? The fact is they already had the Scripture, yet he added refining and testing to purge them of their sin and purify their faith.

 
Isaiah 48:10 I have refined you, but not as silver is refined. Rather, I have refined you in
the furnace of suffering.

 

Andrews statement is without merit - "If problems were what perfected us, then most Christians would have been perfected long ago and those who experienced the greatest problems would be the greatest Christians".

 

I could use the same logic and say that is the Word alone perfected us, God would have left us in the garden of Eden with a Bible, and we would all be perfect. He didn't, he kicked us out to learn some hard "life lessons". Besides this "natural revelation" he gave us his prophets and apostles, his Son, his Spirit, and the written Word. God works on multiple fronts, in various ways - not just the written Word.

 

One can be a Bible scholar, in fact a professor of theology with the Word "coming out of your ears" but not "know" God, or have any perfection of character. There are many examples.
 

Bishop Raymond John Lahey had a Bachelor of Theology, a Licentiate in Theology (L.Th.), and Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) (magna c** laude) but he was still caught lying to protect the pedophile Priests in his charge, and was himself caught importing child pornography of the most graphic, horrendous, and torturous kind. Something more is required than having the Word, one must live the Word.

 
James 1:2-15 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. .. Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

For more study here is another article along these lines - http://www.globalchristians.org/articles/messiah/sufferjc.htm

Comment by James Banfield's Top 20 Songs on October 30, 2012 at 10:42am

without reading Ken's reply I would like to comment .... If this is totally of Mr. Womack I would be suspect of its content.. He is only looking at the Carnal and has forsaken the Spiritual. You must always know the  Heart of the Scriptures" ask yourslf why or what for was this particular scripture written. For What purpose is it to serve. I would have to disagree with this content.  If there are portions that are of Mr. McMillen then I say that you need to do your own study and say what you Believe is to be true and not the word of another. The Lord said, "YOU must eat my flesh and drink my blood" I would not treat you as a lamb for I suspect that you know what that means. We need to drink in the scriptures with our own eyes and heart in order to understand what the Lord is intending with a particular scripture or scriptures. By posting another's "Word" or Article you are saying I vouch for this person and rendering. Blessings to you Mr. McMillen...

Comment by James Banfield's Top 20 Songs on October 30, 2012 at 10:47am

Oh My Goodness!  Without reading Ken's reply look at my comment.. we both said the same thing.. Mr Womack was leaving out one complete side of the equation.  "For every Action there is an equal and opposite reaction" It has to balance, this article does not balance... Ken my compliments... Mr. McMillen I would have to say, when posting others material ask yourself this question, If it were me that wrote this article would I still post it?  Because in essence that is what you are doing. If your answer is yes then post it if your answer is no then dont post it or as I do, I write a disclaimer in the front of the message letting my readers know that this is the opinion of another and not necessarily my own. Blessings to you sir... James

Comment by DAVID A. MCMILLEN on October 30, 2012 at 11:46am

DEAR KEN AND JAMES,

LET ME ASK YOU GENTLEMEN WHERE DO TRIALS, TESTS AND TRIBULATIONS COME FROM AND HOW ARE WE DISCIPLINED FOR THEM.  I KNOW GOD BROUGHT SICKNESS AND DEATH TO THE PEOPLE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BUT NOT SINCE JESUS.  SURE WE HAVE PROBLEMS WHEN WE SIN AND OPEN OURSELVES UP TO THE DEVIL BUT IF WE ASK FORGIVENESS HE FORGIVES US.  SIN IN NOT AN ISSUE SINCE JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS AND NOT ONLY FOR US CHRISTIANS BUT FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.  (1 JOHN 2:2)  THE REASON YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS NOT ACCEPTING JESUS. 

 

DO EITHER OF YOU BELIEVE GOD WOULD PUT SICKNESS ON ONE OF HIS CHILDREN?  SURELY NOT.  IT SAYS IN 1 PETER 2:24 THAT "BY WHOSE STRIPES YE WERE HEALED...NOT GOING TO BE BUT "WERE" HEALED.  HE FINISHED IT ALL ON THE CROSS AND WE HAVE TO USE OUR FAITH AS THE BRIDGE INTO THE SPIRITUAL WORLD TO ACCEPT THIS HEALING, JUST LIKE WE DID WHEN WE ACCEPTED JESUS AS OUR SAVIOR.   ISAIAH EVEN PROPHESIED IN 53:5 THAT BY HIS WOUNDS WE ARE HEALED.  WHO PUTS THESE TRIALS AND TESTS ON US AND HOW ARE WE PUNISHED?  I AM STILL LEARNING AND WOULD LIKE SOME SCRIPTURES UNDER THE NEW COVENANT I CAN STUDY.   

 

THANK YOU BOTH FOR CARING ENOUGH TO RESPOND AND I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.  JUST NEEDING A LITTLE HELP.  IT ALWAYS HAS TO BE BACKED UP BY SCRIPTURE.

 

GOD BLESS YOU BOTH.

 

DAVID

Comment by James Banfield's Top 20 Songs on October 30, 2012 at 12:48pm

David, check your bible, did somebody tear out the book of Job? Thanks for checking  James

Comment by James Banfield's Top 20 Songs on October 30, 2012 at 12:52pm

In the case of the new testament there is the case of the man at the gate ... John 9:1-7  here is the scripture ... And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

Comment by James Banfield's Top 20 Songs on October 30, 2012 at 1:08pm

David at the risk of making you a bit uncomfortable, I would say to you you are in error with this statement, "THE REASON YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS NOT ACCEPTING JESUS. "  SIN is the issue for how can you truly turn from your wicked ways unless you first repent from your sins?... Here look at 2Chron 7:14 "If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves, Pray, seek my face, and Turn from their wicked ways, THEN will I HEAR from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.".. inorder for Jesus to "Wash your sins away, YOU must first repent from your sins and turn from your wicked ways. Then he will hear and do what HE promised he would do. You are correct in saying the phrase "THE REASON YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS NOT ACCEPTING JESUS"  but the actual fact is, don't get caught Circumnavigating the Name of Jesus in what you do. for to do that is to "ByPass" His Name which is actually trying to circumnavigate his Authority. "and the Father told me this and The Father told me that is circumnaviogating the Authority of Jesus for it is not the Father that is speaking but the Son.. for the son is the voice of prophecy. The Holy Spirit is the part of the Son that was broken for you so that and HE (The Son) are a part of each other as the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son. So to The Son is in us as We are in the Son.  do you see this? So to Circumnavigate the Son is to deny his Diety and that is the objective of the devil and always has been. So the true answer to what you said is, The Reason you would go to hell is because you didnt acknowledge or gave honor to the Deity of the Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth who is the Son of God. So don't get in th habit of by passing the Name of Jesus thinking you are going direct to the Father and skip the Deity of the Son.  Amen 

Creator Comment by Ken Rich on October 30, 2012 at 1:51pm

David, context is everything, and taking the totality of scripture into consideration, so that it harmonizes.

I don't know if you read or watch TV, but there is plenty of death and sickness going on right now (even among Christians) and has been since the time of Jesus.

You acknowledge that God bought sickness and death in the Old Testament but say he won't do it now since Jesus came. Has God changed?

 

Malachi 3:6 I am the LORD, and I do not change
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever

 

Are you suggesting that the Old Testament God is different than Jesus? Did you know it was the pre-incarnate Jesus who led Israel through the wilderness?

 

1 Corinthians 10:4 ...and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert. Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did...So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

In the book of revelation, does Jesus not say he is going to unleash his angels to sound their trumpets and pour out bowls of wrath? Unimaginable death, sickness, destruction. This is not Satan and his angels, these angels come from the temple of God.

  

Rev. 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Rev. 9:15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

Rev. 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth...

 

Here again Jude confirms God still deals with sin the same way he always has:

Jude 1:5-7 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe... In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah ...serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

Granted you will say this is for sinners, and I agree, so I will repeat Paul's warning be careful that you don’t fall.

 

I will also repeat his entreaty to not despise God's discipline. For God will purify your faith through discipline (not just the word) to keep you from the destruction to come.

 

Hebrews 12:7-11 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? ...God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of  righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Can't you see that God does not use the word alone, but will allow harsh, painful, and unpleasant discipline to produce righteousness in you, out of LOVE.

He is trying to save you from something worse! Eventually, he will destroy sin and sinners and you don't want to be on that train. If necessary, he will give you "spanking" after "spanking" to turn you from that fate. He loves you, it's for your own good.

Comment by DAVID A. MCMILLEN on October 30, 2012 at 2:37pm

 

 

 JAMES,

IN THIS SCRIPTURE YOU HAVE CAPITAL LETTERS AND PUNCTUATION WHICH IS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS.  THE WORDS WERE INSPIRED BY GOD BUT THE PUNCTUATION AND CHAPTER AND VERSES WERE PUT IN BY THE TRANSLATORS.

 

I WILL PUT IN THE PUNCTUATION THE WAY I READ IT.  "MASTER, WHO DID SIN, THIS MAN, OR HIS PARENTS, THAT HE WAS BORN BLIND.  JESUS ANSWERED, NEITHER HATH THIS MAN SINNED, NOR HIS PARENTS.  (HE ANSWERED THE QUESTION)  (NEW SENTENCE)  BUT, THAT THE WORKS OF GOD SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST IN HIM, I MUST WORK THE WORKS OF HIM THAT SENT ME, WHILE IT IS DAY; THE NIGHT COMETH, WHEN NO MAN CAN WORK." 

 

I DID NOT CHANGE A WORD OF THE SCRIPTURE. 

 

I THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND I WOULD ASK YOU TO PRAY FOR ME AND I WILL FOR YOU.  GOD BLESS YOU BOTH.

 

DAVID

 

Comment by James Banfield's Top 20 Songs on October 30, 2012 at 3:05pm

Neither did I... I copied and pasted from the King James ... hereis tht verse again from the King James   And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

² And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

³ Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

⁴ I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

⁵ As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

⁶ When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,

⁷ And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

The obny thinbg I did was bold a few words to bring them out. so dont be so trival the point is, the man did not sin to be blind and his parents did not either it was because of God's Glory ( that the works of God should be made manifest in him.) The same with Job. What did he do wrong? and yet God allowed him to be struck with sickness by the devil, the devil just couldnt kill him. and what was it for? For God's Glory... We will pray for all of us for none of us are what I call Professors of the Word we all need the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding the scriptures.. Amen

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