Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Talugende Robert on October 8, 2011 at 8:16am

Amen! Amen! I thank God for this teaching, you have touched and blessed me. Many thanks Ken.

The Church of Christ need to hear this, people have compalined and have said all they have said about God, infact others have cursed God for their surfering. The truth lies in the teaching you have shared.

Stay blessed Man of God. Keep blessing us ( The Church) with such teachings.

In His Name.

Robert

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CreatorPermalink Reply by Ken Rich on October 8, 2011 at 1:59pm

Hi Robert,

 

Thanks for your feedback. It is especially meaningful, since you come from an area of the world where there is so much suffering. Your people have seen so many things first hand, that would greatly disturb us here in the West.

 

If in some small way, this teaching helps to make sense of such things, then I am very happy to have written it.

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Permalink Reply by Kouassi Kouamé Germain on October 8, 2011 at 3:40pm

 

Brother Ken,

I do preach neither Calvinism nor Arminianism. But I preach what the Bible truly says. There isn’t any contradiction in the Bible. The controversy you underlined resides only in the mind of the Theologians you’ve mentioned.

Indeed, by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8, Romans 6:23).

 

^“He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5).

If works are needed for salvation, then salvation is no longer a GIFT.

I fully agree with you when you say that “We do not perform good works in order to become saved, but because we allow the Spirit of God to work in us - good works are the natural result”.

It’s true, Good works are faith expressed.

You also said this: “In my view, some things like the plan of salvation were predestined and in according to God's sovereign will. Other things operate by freewill, or choice - like our participation the plan of salvation”.

 

I see your attempt to reconcile “predestination” and “free will”. But the question is deeper that. If you stay at that level of comprehension, the so called controversy will still remain. However, there is no contradiction in the Bible.

Brother, “free will” is what you see physically, namely the outward choice to do right things or evil things.

But, fundamentally, have you ever seen a man or a woman who deliberately choose to disobey God or to sin, merely because she/he takes great delight in going to hell?

Brother Ken, in the present time till death you will choose  to do right things IF YOU ARE BORN OF GOD. Amen!

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God”. 

1 John 3:9

I agree that “free will” must be manifested. It lies on people to decide.  But I also believe there is something behind each “free will”, depending whether we are born of God or Satan.  Let us put the stress on that.

There is an inward WILL which arouses each outward free will of man depending whether his born of God or Satan (Philippians 2:13). 

IT’S A QUESTION OF SEED. Please, think it over!

For instance, Ken Rich is an Artist today. Ken Rich decided freely to become a musician. To perform this target, he has worked hard, he has toiled.

That is his free will which people physically see (his deeds, fruits, testimonies).

But why didn’t Ken Rich endeavor to become a Mason or a Cook for example?

Besides, why doesn’t Ken Rich complain before God about his present status?

Simply because the Bible declares that "A man can receive nothing, unless it be given him from Heaven” (John 3:27).

Truly speaking, “free will” must be manifested. But there is something behind each “free will”, depending whether we are born of God or Satan.

The Bible says: “^“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world”.

Revelation 13:8

God never fails, those names of whom are written in the book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD WILL NEVER WORSHIP THE BEAST.

Those who are born of God will always do the will of God.

 

^”For I say to every man that is among you, through the grace given unto me, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith”             (Romans 12:3).

IT’S A QUESTION OF SEED. 

For more details, I do invite you to read my blogs below available on the black preaching Network.

WHAT IS PREDESTINATION?

 http://abcpreachers.ning.com/profiles/blogs/what-is-predestination

SALVATION IS A GIFT OF GOD: YOUR OWN GOOD WORKS CAN NEVER SAVE YOU!

 http://abcpreachers.ning.com/profiles/blogs/salvation-is-a-gift-of-god

May God bless you!

Brother Germain

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CreatorPermalink Reply by Ken Rich on October 8, 2011 at 6:50pm

Hi Germain,

 

I agree that the contradiction is only apparent, and in fact a construct of systematic theology itself, which tends to polarize issues into two or more camps, each with their proof texts.

 

It's like a coin - there are two sides and depth producing a relatively thick edge. It's only when seen in three dimensions, that all facets become apparent.

 

I agree that when we are born again, there is a seed implanted of the very Spirit of God.

 

However, I think you may go too far in your emphasis of he cannot sin, because he is born of God”.  

That is like seeing a coin from only one side. The perception is only true until you look at it in three dimensions. It is of no use to "camp out" on this verse above, because the same author also says:

 

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...

It can easily be seen that 1 John 3:9 does not have the strict emphasized meaning you assign to it, when taken in the larger context of other scripture, including scripture by the same author in the same book. It is clear that John is speaking of HABITUAL sin.

 

Our overall lifestyle is determined by our initial choice to accept Jesus, and our daily choice to remain in HIM. As long as we choose to remain in Christ, the Spirit will war against the flesh, so that we cannot sin habitually like we did before. Not that we will never stumble into sin, or have been rendered incapable of making a mistake, or that we can't choose to leave altogether and go back to the world.

 

James 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways...  

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after...

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.  

I see the long argument with Ozell Adams in your article. I have no desire to go down that road with you. Personally, my views on choice and predestination are similar to the brand of Arminianism taught by John Wesley. Enough debates already exist on this topic, by men more renowned, respected, and articulate than either of us - another debate would be fruitless.

 

I did notice on the end of your article that you seem to support the once saved always saved doctrine. HERE are many scriptures that may cause you to rethink your position.

 

It's absolutely true that nothing can snatch us out of the hand of God. However, it is also true that we can choose to leave or forsake the relationship.

The narrow views forced upon scripture by systematic theology, are symptoms of our methodology, not the Scripture itself. For instance, freewill, and predestination do not have to be seen as mutually exclusive. The plan of salvation was predestined, but our participation in it is by choice. God's sovereign will is not thwarted by our freewill, our choices exist within the boundaries set by God.

 

God Bless you,

Ken

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Permalink Reply by Zack Martin on October 9, 2011 at 2:31am

I believe that the whole truth is NOT known by all of mankind. There are mysteries that are only known by God! When it was asked in Relvelation chapter 5, "Who Is Worthy to break the seals?" Notice that only Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son was and is the only one worthy enough. WORTHY IS THE LAMB! The Truth of some of the theology that we rebuttal back and fourth between ourselves will NOT be known until that day that we stand before The Lord. The theology that excites me most, is how we can have eternal life by faith, through grace in the Lord Jesus Christ.

.When I was called into the ministry, the gospel that mattered the most was that Jesus became the sacrifice, that we needed to be saved and have the hope of etenal life. When I was in Bible College, Theology was my major and Music was my minor. I used the theology in my youth ministry, and the music in (well) music ministry. I am sure that we will never have the total truth, but I KNOW THE ONE THAT DOES, and my faith in Him remains strong. The answers that I need and have will always come through my faith in my Lord and Savior. I am living by faith in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I do not claimed to know all of the answers, but my faith tells me that we are in a battle against the Devil (Satan), and I may lose a battle every now and then, but I've read the ending, WE WIN!!!!!! When we stand behind the Lord during the battle of Armageddon, all we have to do is cheer Him on, and all He does is SPEAK death and destruction on those in the battle against the Christian World. My faith has grown to the point that I hear Jesus' calling, and know His will for my life. I have studied and I know theology, and I know where I stand, but my witness is the most important thing in my life.

Rev 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven . Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
NIV

Rev 12:7-9 talks about a war that I believe took place eons before us, and it is still going on. It will not be ended until the Devil and his evil demons are triumpth over in the end of the world. Those of mankind that are good and have accepted the saving grace of Jesus will be with Jesus. Those that refused His saving grace will be destroyed with the Devil and his demons in the lake of fire. There IS a HIGHER POWER,  an ALL KNOWING POWER,  and we are simply HIS SERVANTS! I am SO GLAD that I serve God and not the wickedness of the Devil! Debates and discussions are fine to a point, but to elaborate on things that I believe only God knows is simply opinions, and unforunately are as many as there are people. While I enjoy discussing the Word of God, THE GOSPEL OF THE CHURCH AGE IS WHAT WE WERE CALLED TO DO. AND THAT IS THAT JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS TO BE THE SACRIFICE WE NEED TO BE SAVED AND HAVE THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. We had that eternity taken away from us when Satan tempted Eve, and Adam and Eve gave into that temptation in the Garden of Eden. God The Father, was able to give us that eternity back when Jesus (His only begotten Son) died on the cross of Calvary for our sins, and was raised 3 days later, having victory over death and the grave. WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN THE LORD, JESUS CHRIST. NOT OF OUR OWN WORKS, LEST WE BOAST.

My favorite Scripture is Romans 10:9-10. (9) if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Then in verse 10 it explains that) (10) For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Then in verse 13 it says. "for everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

This is the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST THAT GIVES US OUR ETERNITY BACK.

I hope I have said this plainly. In His Name, Rev. Zack Martin Sr.

 

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CreatorPermalink Reply by Ken Rich on October 9, 2011 at 3:05pm

I totally agree Zack. None of us know it all, even the great Apostle Paul admitted to limitations and expressed it this way.

 

1 Cor. 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

Even the greatest theologians refine, adjust, or abandon earlier positions as they mature. Personally, my early stance was very narrow and legalistic, but became grace centered as my understanding grew. There are still many areas where I would like to understand more, like all of us.

 

I think that there is great usefulness in discussion and debate - up to a point. As long as it isn't simply causing divisions over disputable matters, or majoring in the minors, it can be very healthy and beneficial.

 

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

That's why I give quite a bit of lee way for such discussions in the regulations - truth is not fragile, and has nothing to fear from examination or debate - only darkness fears the withering light of scrutiny

I think one should also stand up to heresy and refute it, as best we can.

 

Acts 18:28 For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate...

2 Peter 2:1 ...there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies...

Jude 1:3 ...continue your vigorous defense of the faith that was passed down to the saints...

 

Having said all that, I completely agree, that we should keep going back to the core message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ - the Gospel. Our theological musings can wander into many areas, but the Gospel should never become obscured or neglected.

 

It's not necessary that everyone agree on the side issues, and we certainly shouldn't divide over them. However, those things which relate to the issue of salvation itself, are to be defended and expounded to the best of our abilities.

 

It's good to have TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED MINISTERS such as yourself here, to ensure that the Gospel is given it's proper place, and is clearly proclaimed.

 

Thanks for adding to our discussion, God Bless you...

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Permalink Reply by Zack Martin on October 9, 2011 at 3:47pm

I totally agree with you Ken, and I am not reputing anything I've read of your writings. My main point was to only remind us that we are not the final authority on any matter. God has that authority, but we DO have to spread the Gospel (God's Saving Grace) to those that are lost, because we are the CHURCH and even as our age is coming to a close, there are those that can still be reached for the Lord. I have studied Theology for years, and I have my beliefs and stands, and I voice them, but I try not to let them negate my witness for Jesus. We serve the same God and He love us all equally. He doesn't love me anymore than anyone else. THE GROUND IS LEVEL AT HE FOOT OF THE CROSS! That is the only reason I left the last response. I love and respect you and your teachings. God is a great God and people need to know what you've said. I have just read some of the replys back, not only on this, but on your stand about the Catholic Pope, and I wanted everyone to know that while we discuss these things, we do it only in the limited knowledge that we have, it is GOD that has the final says. I agree with your teaching because that's how I see it, but I won't let it stand in the way of my witness for Jesus. That is all I was trying to say. I hope it doesn't offend anyone, if it does then I guess I didn't get my point across clearly. God Bless You Ken, and KEEP GOING FOR GOD AS YOU ARE. INDI GOSPEL ARTIST WEBSITE IS STILL THE BEST AND MOST SPIRITUALLY FULFILLING SIGHT ON THE INTERNET.

Rev. Zack Martin Sr.

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CreatorPermalink Reply by Ken Rich on October 9, 2011 at 4:08pm

Hi Zack,

 

Yes, that's also in the regulations. The Word of God, is considered the final authority - Sola Scriptura.

 

Unfortunately, a fallible person like myself (or an admin), has to sometimes make a judgement call. We have had to ban a couple people who (in our humble and fallible opinions) were teaching obvious heresies - which they couldn't  defend by Scripture and reason (like the person who taught that Christians were actually worshiping Zeus).

 

However, most of the time there are no issues. I allow things I personally disagree with, or are highly controversial, as long as the poster doesn't try to block opposing comments that are damaging, or fatal, to their stated position. That way, the truth comes out in the counter-arguments.

 

Thanks for your encouraging statement about the nature of the site. I am glad you find it spiritually fulfilling. It is certainly intended to be, and GOD WILLING, it will fulfill it's mandate.

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Permalink Reply by Zack Martin on October 9, 2011 at 4:23pm

AMEN BROTHER.....GOD BLESS YOU!

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Permalink Reply by Zack Martin on October 9, 2011 at 5:27pm

To add one thought to Brother Ken's discussion, having serve as a minister for God for over 35 years, I noticed in my own life and in many other of my minister friends that as the CHURCH AGE is nearing it's end, Satan is bolder in his fight against God and good. He is attacking Ministers of God today! When I became disabled in 2006 at the age of 56, I asked a minister friend of mine, "Brother, why is this happening to me?" I couldn't fulfill my obligations as Minister of Music and Youth Pastor because I was crippled so badly that I coudn't walk, and I am confined to a power chair. My minister friend looked me straight in the eye and said, "ZacK, who had you rather it happened to? God knows your faith and strength in Him, and that you are His child." Had you rather it happened to someone that doesn't know Him as Savior? You will be a spokemans to those, that God is Good, and looks after us even in the bad times. He didn't promise you a bed of roses, but HE DID PROMISE TO BE WITH YOU THROUGH IT ALL!"

That was the best thing I could have heard at that time. O, I went through a period of depression because I coudn't do revivals and concerts anymore, but I found out that I could reach MORE people through the modern age of communication, than I ever did as a local church minister. After I got my power chair I found out that I could do a few concerts locally if I spread them out, and guess what, I have been ask to preach and sing at my church on an upcoming Sunday night service

My point is this, suffering in my case has led to a new ministry for the Lord. I can still sing pretty good (not as good as I could when younger, but still pretty good). I am still God's servant. but my audience is different. With this age of Internet, I can still send the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ out to people that might not have and opporunity from a church minister. After I realized this my depression ended, and I will serve my Lord with my last dying breath, until I meet Him in heaven. While not a detailed account of my life, I hope you can see from this how God is with us even in suffering. I know well how Job felt, because I have tasted a little bit. I have started notes that I plan to use in a book about this, so pray for me that I can show God's power in times of suffering. I CAN STATE THAT GOD IS GREAT AND GOOD, AND I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE BECAUSE I HAVE ACCEPTED JESUS' GRACE AND FAITH, AND HIS BLOOD HAS AND WILL COVERE MY SINS.

God Bless You Al, Rev. Zack Martin Sr.

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CreatorPermalink Reply by Ken Rich on October 10, 2011 at 1:38am

AMEN to that Zack. The Internet is the new mission field.

The cyberspace highways and byways are the best place to find the lost today, and invite them to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I've heard local Church Pastors complain about shrinking congregations, and many Pastors today simply quit in the face of declining influence and relevance.

However, studies have shown that short (under 5 minute) messages, riding on social networking technologies, have the potential to go viral and reach millions.

Plus, the media is always there once uploaded. The Spirit can guide someone to it at any time thereafter, unlike a live meeting. It's a tremendous resource, the soul winning potential is enormous.

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Permalink Reply by Zack Martin on October 10, 2011 at 3:09am

Thanks for your encouragement and thanks for an avenue of service for the Lord. I believe we can get the gospel out through such great sight as this one, and you have a talent to help us that don't know as much about the Internet as you do. I can never say enough thankyou's for that.

Zack

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