Do we believe that we have a God that we can adjust according to our own perception, or do we really believe the bible: with God ALL things are possible. Like 3 little peasant girls that saw, and recieved a message from Mary, mother of Jesus. Why are some christians taught to shun this testimony by 3 little girls ,one which is still alive, and still testifies? Do we try to make God's mind up for Him, "Oh no! God wouldn't do that?
Most Protestants reject the Catholic teachings on Mary, because they have no basis in Scripture. We base our beliefs on the word of God - not the inventions of Papists, nor pagan teachings that Papists incorporated into their version of Christianity.
Further, most Protestants reject the Marian apparitions as demonic activity.
2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
The Catholic Church was not the first to worship the "Queen of Heaven", this was a long standing practice in occult religions.
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 1894: "Queen of Heaven with the ancient Phoenicians, was Astarte; Greeks, Hera; Romans, Juno; Trivia, Hecate, Diana, the Egyptian Isis, etc., were all so called; but with the Roman Catholics it is the Virgin Mary."
Temple of the Temptress: "Diana was called the Mother goddess and Queen of heaven, just as Mary is called Mother of god and queen of heaven."
Encyclopedia Britannica: "Astarte/Ashtoreth is the Queen of Heaven to whom the Canaanites had burned incense and poured libations."
Personally, I believe something supernatural occurred at Fatima, but I do not believe it was of God. I have looked into what "Mary" has said, in some of these alleged visitations, and many of her statements contradict the word of God. Therefore, I must conclude that the spirit behind these apparitions is not of God.
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God...
Here are two quotes below (with links), if you wish to study this out further. My advice to you is flee from idolatry, test the Spirits, and study the Bible for yourself. Let no church, institution, teacher, preacher, priest, or apparition, come between you and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or rob you of the truth - as it is in Jesus.
Idolatry is the main fruit which comes forth from all of the apparitions of “Mary.” Statues, medals and scapulars are just a few examples of that, and over the years they have sold in the millions.
Do I believe that ALL of the apparitions are demonic in nature? Yes I do, and I will continue to sound the alarm because that is exactly what the word of God commands us to do!.MARIAN APPARITIONS: DIVINE OR DEMONIC?
Most Protestants reject the vast majority of Catholic teachings regarding Mary as anything from aberrant, to heretical.
Some of the unbiblical teachings relating to the Mary of Catholic Tradition include the following:
1.Mary’s immaculate conception: This doctrine teaches that she was born without original sin and was, therefore, sinless throughout her life.
2.Mary’s perpetual virginity: This dogma asserts that she had no children after Jesus.
3.Mary’s bodily assumption or physical ascension into heaven: This teaches that because of her sinlessness, Mary never experienced physical death. Instead she was raised bodily into the presence of Christ.
4.Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix of all grace: This doctrine holds that the obedience and sufferings of Mary were essential to secure the full redemption brought by Christ.
5.Mary’s right to veneration and/or worship: This teaching argues that because of her unparalleled role in the economy of salvation, Mary is worthy of special adoration.
- Source: John Ankerberg and John Weldon, The Facts on Roman Catholicism, Harvest House, Oregon, 1993, p.40; citing “The Catholic Encyclopedia” UnBiblical Teachings on Mary
They say the angel Gabriel gave the gold tablets to Joseph smith, which is where they got there book of Mormon from. Mohammed claimed that Gabriel Gave him the Koran. If you are referring to Fatima, Well, I believe that some formally Heavenly being is making appearances and deceiving millions. Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
I wasnt condoning the worship of Mary, or you, or anyone else, I was merely pointing out how quickly some christians can dismiss something because of indoctronation, and so 3 little girls with no reason to lie, and the scripture that says "ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD" are thrown out the window. If we beleive that then we dont so readily dispose of something simply because we cant understand the workings of God. No I beleive it is foolish, and presumptuos to think we know the bible soooo well that we can direct God's behaviour. Once again you flatter yourself on knowing God's every move. If you don't beleive the mother of our Savior deserves more attention than yourself, WOA! now that is fatheaded! I admit every sighting, and every so called apparition is not from God at all, but this one in particular was lasting, with a good message, and very profound, with no demonic attributes, no demon, or false angel of light, I see you tend to wheel God's word around to your own liking taking many passages out of context, and once again like the pope you condemn deem yourself INFALLABLE??? WOW!
I know of no one claiming infallibility except the Pope, so I see no reason for you to keep making that allegation, about anyone but him. Their supposed authority is based on apostolic succession, which is ridiculous to anyone who knows the sorted history of the Roman Church, and the teachings of the Bible.
However, I respect your freedom of conscience and expression. If you wish to follow Rome, or worship Mary, you have that freedom. I would hope that you can tone down your rhetoric, and stop calling people fatheads, simply because they disagree with your point of view. On this network you will have to respect the freedom of conscience and expression of others, and refrain from character assassination - or find yourself banned.
Here are some statements by Catholic leaders about Mary that directly contradict the Bible!
"Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate." -Pope John Paul II
"We have an advocate in Mary that the father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot say no to. It is impossible for them to say no to her! -Fr. Stephan Scheier
Perhaps you should study the issue of Mary Worship, before you condemn those who refuse to practice it. You might find that they have amply reason to feel the way they do. Here are some links, one is from a former Catholic nun, who was involved in Mary worship, but has rejected it in favor of true worship.
Well this will be the last post beacause I see you avoid direct reasoning, and refer to history of human error rather than bold faced faith, and as I pointed out I was only refering to an incident that took place before we were born, and had nothing to do with the Catholic church, it was 3 little girls, and 70,000 wittnesses to a sign given. When they reported it to the priests the little girls were not believed by the church. And dear brother you can deny claiming infallibility directly, but indirectly it is very evident you do consider yourself an authority on God, and the bible. You should be ashamed, and put you guitar down, and ask God to forgive you for your vain ego that only respects itself. I ban myself from such selfcentered confusion. I am not catholic nor do I condone idolotry in any form, but I humble myself to understand that I don't understand all there is to know about God like the protestants do. "Not all who call Me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven" " He draws near to the humble, but resists the proud" I will pray for you, and every so called christian that feels they have God in the palm of their hand.
I really wish you would refrain from personal attacks and character assassination. It is very unchristian and in poor taste. I could ban, you but I choose to tun the other cheek once again.
You say this is non-Catholic and different that the plethora of other Marian apparitions but others do not see it that way.
According to the Catholic church, the Virgin Mary appeared at Fatima, Portugal numerous times in 1917 to three little shepherds named Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta. Since the Roman Catholic church has endorsed and fully accepted these visions as being from God and they have in turn affected hundreds of millions of people over the years by their messages these are very important Marian apparitions.The Fatima Visions
Eventually it was accepted but not from a real faith but by pressure. At the time this took place the church scoffed at the girls, and treated them badly, once again showing human error, and once again the reality of the vision cannot be measured by opinion or vast info. on the churchs teaching. The vision was not based on denomination, it was an event! To not beleive something simply because the specifics are not written is truly vain my brother because again it says that we have God all figured out, come on now. The song of Bernadette, and her story! much proof of truth. What causes you to doubt the integrity of these visions? The teachings you keep refering to have no bearing on weather they are true or not, they are after the fact. Do you beleive it was divine intervention when pastor Haggi was shot at point blank and yet not one bullet hit him? Its not in the bible. I'm sorry brother but my God is not confined by opinion, or historical facts, or is He confined between the pages of Genesis, and Revelation. No brother, the bible is all true but everything that is true is not in the bible??? With respect, David
The following is a clear example of a false gospel, but nonetheless is part of the salvation message at Fatima. The personage claiming to be Mary said:
I promise to assist at the hour of death with the graces necessary for salvation all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to Confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep me company for a quarter of an hour while meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary, with the intention of making reparation to me (p. 47).
Dear reader, please know that Mary doesn’t have the ability or influence to make such a promise to assist in one’s salvation. Furthermore, even if she did, her directives are not true. All this talk about going to confession, receiving communion, reciting 5 decades of the Rosary, etc. is all foreign to the Bible. This was never the message of Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, James, etc. Did God have his salvation message changed or revised for us since Fatima? If He did, then there is now another way to obtain salvation since the Fatima visions, which is impossible. There has only been one true plan of salvation alongside many counterfeits. The following is most relevant about a false gospel:
.... Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! (Gal 1:7-9) The Fatima Visions
The link you point to is also fallible since the weight of it is based on opinion, and the misuse of scripture, and she pointed to no other gospel, only a helping hand, and don't you think the mother of Jesus could have any influence with her son? At Cana she made a difference as she interceeded for the guests? And again do you think that God can only do what the bible says?? I do not. We do not direct God using the bible, and in reality it is scripture that says we cannot. If we base our complete understanding of Him on scripture that is good because that is all we have, but if we think that is all He is, and can do no more than what is written then we decieve ourselves for sure. And do you not know, and understand that the prayers of the rosary are not about Mary, but Jesus? and that they are all gospel prayers taken directly from the gospels???
I am sorry, but you are quite mistaken about the rosary being about Jesus and not Mary, and being all gospel prayers taken directly from the gospels.
The following is the Hail Holy Queen prayer, that is, the ending of the Rosary:
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! ...Turn then, most gracious advocate, ...O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"
The Hail Holy Queen prayer -- which proclaims Mary as "our" LIFE, SWEETNESS, HOPE and MOST GRACIOUS ADVOCATE -- has an official endorsement from Vatican II.
By calling Mary "our life," present-day Catholicism is saying indirectly, through the Rosary, that she has a role in our salvation! According to the Bible, this is "another gospel" (Gal. 1:8,9)
Here are official statements from Vatican II on the subject.
...filial love towards her who is the Mother of the Church and of consecrated souls. This love for the Virgin will be manifested with the celebration of her feasts and, in particular, with daily prayer in her honour, especially the Rosary. (Vatican Council II, Vol. 2, p.251.)
...when the family gathering becomes a time of prayer the Rosary is a frequent and favoured manner of praying'. In this way, authentic devotion to Mary, which finds expression in sincere love and generous imitation of the Blessed Virgin's interior spiritual attitude, constitutes a special instrument for nourishing loving communion in the family and for developing conjugal and family spirituality. For she who is the Mother of Christ and of the Church is in a special way the Mother of Christian families, of domestic Churches" (ibid., pp. 865, 866).
What you seem to be overlooking is that the Bible teaches that Jesus is our advocate, not Mary. He is the only way to the Father, not Mary. The Gospel is about faith in Jesus, he died for us, not Mary.
Mary was blessed to have been chosen to bear him, but the Bible in no way elevates her to co-redeemer, advocate, or a helper in our salvation, in any way, shape, or form.
Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, not Mary. Your relationship with Jesus should be direct and personal, not through a Priest, Saint, Mary, or anyone else.
Hebrews 4 14-16 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens's Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. ...Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Did Jesus teach us to pray to Mary? Isn't the Lord's Prayer to our Father, not Mary? Did he tell us to ask for things in her name, or his name?
Mary may have been a fine woman, she was chosen to bear Jesus, but she is not Jesus. She can't save you, she didn't die for you, and no where does the Bible teach that she is a mediator between God and man.
Rome is teaching a different Gospel - flee from Babylon! I say it in love, with an honest desire to see you in the Kingdom.
"The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an 'epitome of the whole Gospel,' express this devotion to the Virgin Mary" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Liguori Publications, p.253.)
In stark contrast to the Rosary (with its "mysteries") being the "epitome of the whole Gospel" as Rome put it, the Apostle Paul clearly outlined an entirely different Gospel, which he preached -- the one that brings true salvation. Please note that Paul never mentioned Mary directly or indirectly! Similarly, Peter, who was supposedly the first pope, NEVER mentioned Mary at all in either of his two books of the New Testament.
I was not condoning nor do I personally worship anyone but God. I was only pointing to the fact that no matter what is written, and all of these documents you point to God is not restricted to the bible or our intellectual prowess, that is ridiculous the bible itself teaches that. If it is not in the bible that does not automatically make it untrue, and Jesus would agree. Many other things He did, and were not written in the bible, that is what the word says. My mentor is a protestant, and a bible teacher for 50 years. He and his wife Ruth are in their 90's, and I have never met a more God fearing, and humble man of God, and even he with all his study from the heart has many times said "I don't know for sure" But you don't even do that, if you would actually be honest and admit you do not have all the answers, and leave it at that it would probably be the only complete true statement I have heard from you, and that is not character assasination, just observation, and truth. Lets not be oversensitive. "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, and power, and of a sound mind"
I have been following this conversation with much interest and was moved to point out a fact that you both seem to have over looked. The bible tells me that Mary indeed did give birth to the Christ and this is recognized as a miracle by all, yet she was only a human and a vassal that God decided to use to introduce his son to the world. Mary died and she sleeps awaiting the resurrection just like the rest of the dead. So then, who was it that appeared to the three girls of Fatima? In my humble the Fatima apparitions are a deception, not of GOD.
2 Corinthians 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
I say again, let no one think me a fool.
There for, an angel of GOD would not deceive anyone into believing that they were one of the dead. The Bible tells us that the dead sleep.